Jessica: (00:06)

Welcome to Once Upon an Upset: Interviews. On today's episode, I interviewed Barbara Baum Freethy, a social cognitive therapist with a specialty in working with neurodivergent children and adults. Over the past 40 years, Barbara has been a teacher, developmental evaluator, play therapist, individual psychotherapist, and parent coach. She is a certified CPS provider, the collaborative and proactive solutions model developed by Ross Greene, and currently meets virtually with parents and families across the country. Barbara has also developed transdisciplinary workshops incorporated, organizing over 200 continuing education events for professionals and parents wanting to learn more about cognitive diversity, psychology and mental health.

Jessica: (01:01)
In this interview, I spoke with Barbara about the basics of CPS, how people can use CPS to better connect with their partners and their children, and we also talked about some ways to listen reflectively in order to understand each other's concerns to create connection rather than deflecting and/or correcting each other's concerns, which tends to lead to disconnection, stress, and reactivity. Barbara lives in coastal Maine where she enjoys traveling to local islands, as well as sharing her great interest in geometric origami. She can be reached barbara@transdis.com, Barbara@ T-R-A-N-S-D-I-S.com. I'm very excited to have you here today, Barbara. Thank you so much for being here.

Barbara: (01:55)
I'm glad to be here too, Jess.

Jessica: (01:57)
Yes. Today, we are going to be talking about the CPS model of, gosh, of handling conflicts. Well, why don't I just give it over to you, Barbara, to explain a little bit about what you specialize in, and for people who don't know what CPS is, how it can be used in relationships with one's children and one's partners?

Barbara: (02:29)
I'd be glad to. The CPS model stands for collaborative and proactive solutions. And it was developed by Ross Greene in probably 2000, year 2000. Ross Greene is known best for his book, The Explosive Child, and his nonprofit organization Lives in the Balance, which is committed to the model as well as enormous effort to stop restraints and seclusions in schools.

Barbara: (03:06)
When I first heard the model about 20 years ago, it changed my career. Well, the big shift for me was the way that we were trained by Dr. Greene to talk to children; always start with an empathic statement and reflective listening in order to build the trust and the communication between parent or teacher and child. Part two is to always include the child in the process rather than... There's so many models out there that are designed to tell teachers and parents and therapists, "Here's what you do with the kid." Or I should say, "Here's what you do to the kid from just that one adult angle."

Barbara: (03:52)
And what I love is what you do together with the child so the child is a part of the process. Finding out what's getting in a kid's way to meet the demands placed on he or she in school or at home is key rather than falling back on adult theories. We think our kid isn't doing well in school and having meltdowns because of A, B, and C. Instead, we're asking the kid, "I notice you're having difficulty going out for recess. What's up? Tell me about it." Getting the kid's concerns on the table, getting our concerns on the table, and then coming up with possible solutions until everyone involved agrees on one solution.

Barbara: (04:37)
And it's very different. One of the challenges is it's very different than most of us were raised so we have to push against the messages in our heads that are telling us to do it differently. I would venture to guess that most people, at least in my generation, we're raised with what's called plan A parenting, which is authoritative. You must, you will, you should, or plan C, which is nevermind, forget it; just dropping expectations, right?

Jessica: (05:10)
Mm-hmm.

Barbara: (05:11)
Plan B parenting is what I just talked about. It's all about inviting the child to figure out the issues together, figure out what's going on.

Jessica: (05:21)
Thank you so much. What a beautiful explanation. And I feel like when I first found out about CPS, it was such a relief because I was used to reading, excuse me, about parenting solutions that didn't speak for my situation. Like if a parenting solution gave ideas about rewards or punishments or to set up a situation where your kid is listening to what you want them to do to meet goals that you have for them. And the kid is unwilling to even participate in those scenarios. In my situation, it just led to more explosions and more conflict. This was the first time where I had a paradigm shift where I thought, wow, this is something that opens up the space to create solutions together with your child. And that was such a different idea than I'd ever heard of.

Barbara: (06:35)
Well, one of the things that I've been hearing lately, there's some new research that's showing that one of the most important factors in kids' success as adults is the strength of the parent-child connection. And so what I'm so interested in now is helping parents increase that connection, and one way to do it is by being what the model calls a plan B parent. It would sound something like this, if your child comes up to you and says, "Mom, I'm hungry," and the mom says back, "No, you're not. You just had lunch." Even if you say it in the kindest voice, you're negating that child's reality at that moment. To say, "Oh, I hear you. You're hungry. We did just eat lunch, but I'm wondering if you'd just like to have a snack to get through until dinner." Rather than to try to manage the child, you're consulting with them. It's a beautiful way to build a connection.

Jessica: (07:32)
It is such a beautiful way. And like you said, it's so opposite to what most of us have been raised doing. And it may feel for some parents to leave that authoritarian parenting and go into a more collaborative mindset, it may feel very, very unfamiliar. In your experience, when you've talked to parents who may still be dealing with their own dysfunctional childhoods and they may feel like, "Well, I'm not being treated well by this child, so this child needs to understand that that's wrong to treat me like that and to raise their voice at me," what are some ways that a parent can shift that lens to seeing the child as not misbehaving, but to get on one of those plan B empathy lenses?

Barbara: (08:31)
Great question. I think one of the big things is for all of us adults to look at children's behavior as a message to us. What is that behavior trying to tell us? What is the child trying to tell us by refusing to do something, by melting down, by not following through with requests we give them? And to trust that rather than to assume, "My child is defiant or oppositional or disrespectful." I hear that a lot. "Please help me make my kid more respectful of my wishes." And then when you would probe closer, you find that there's a lot of plan A parenting going on in that household. And there are highly sensitive kids in particular that don't do well with plan A parenting. I feel strongly all kids should not be parented through plan A, but I've noticed with my clients that those highly sensitive kids have a extra hard time.

Jessica: (09:37)
Wow. It's almost like a parent who has been plan A'ed in their own childhood. They've been raised with authoritarian parenting. "You must meet these expectations or else." They have to do some re-parenting of themselves first, I'd imagine, before they can then put on that empathy lens for their child.

Barbara: (10:02)
[inaudible 00:10:02].

Jessica: (10:04)
In your experience, what are some techniques for a parent to begin to shift from that plan A lens for themselves to a plan B lens? Because I'd imagine that a parent has to do a whole lot of self-soothing to just pause in that moment when your child is saying, "I hate you," or, "No," or, "I'm not going to do this." Before a parent reacts, what are some ways that they can shift themselves to having some compassion and empathy for themselves first?

Barbara: (10:41)
What's coming up for me right away when you ask that question is the need for us as parents to have self-compassion, because when we are triggered into a reflexive responses like our parents, some of that's because our child within us is scared or nervous or feels out of control, and to move into another way of doing things where we're not in plan A can make us feel very afraid. What will happen? What will happen? What would've happened to me if I had talked back to my parents like this? And again, back to really reading their behavior as a way to communicate to us.

Barbara: (11:21)
I want to say a little bit more about your question, though. Really spending time to look at the positives and the negatives of our own growing up can be very helpful in raising our kids, getting in touch with that. So many of us say, "When I have a kid, I'm not doing anything that my parents did. I'm going to do it completely different." And then when things start to get a little rocky, what happens? All of a sudden, we seek what familiar. We seek the, "No, go to your room. Time out. You've just lost computer for the rest of your life," or whatever it is that they're threatening with because we feel out of control, you know?

Jessica: (12:02)
Mm-hmm.

Barbara: (12:02)
Trusting that there's another way is important. And I love working with partners, couples on how to do that work together, how to get the past relatives out of the room that are in the way, the past relationships.

Jessica: (12:20)
Yes. And you say such a brilliant thing, Barbara: ejecting the past. To be able to have the skills to eject the past and be in present time with what's happening right before you can be the beginning of being able to put on a different lens. And when you said that to me for the first time, it really shifted something.

Barbara: (12:48)
Yeah, the past looks right in when things get sticky. It does. When couples are saying to me, "I feel triggered by my son or my daughter," or, "I feel triggered by my partner," right there that's a beautiful opportunity to open the door to talking a bit about the past and how it's interfering, and then ejecting it, as you said. Yeah. Yeah, it does get in the way.

Jessica: (13:17)
It does. And when I read in Facebook groups parents who are really looking for some guidance and help, what I hear over and over again are conflicts in the house that are so layered with blind spots. And a blind spot, I would say when people are being triggered by something that's not in real time, something that happened from the past but they're reacting in the present moment to those past things.

Barbara: (13:47)
Excellent.

Jessica: (13:47)
And then you've got a child who's being a child and reacting and you've got a partner, a husband or a wife reacting from their past to that moment and the other partner reacting. And there's three different explosions going on in that same moment. And someone has to be in a position to eject the past and to then put on those empathy lenses and start sorting things out. But that's such a hard thing to do. Where do you even begin? If one person is going to be the one who says, "You know what? I've got to transform this family," first, how does that person be able to get over their disappointment that they've got to do this all alone? What might be a strategy to just self-soothe in that moment to shift that dynamic? That's a big question. What, if anything, comes up for you?

Barbara: (14:48)
That's beautifully said, Jess, just beautiful. When I started using the CPS model, for many years I was directing my work solely to the parents' way of interacting with their kids. And in the last, oh, maybe four years or so, I've shifted more into making sure that the parents could talk to each other the same way that I was encouraging them to talk to their kids. And I found a lot of the parents I work with really struggled with that. The first step is making sure that they both have the same lens on about who their kid is; that's really important. But are they in fact using empathy and reflective listening with each other?

Barbara: (15:33)
And I've been finding more often they're not, so they're caught in a dynamic that sounds a little like this. Let's say one parent goes out of the house to work and the other one works at home. One that's been working out of the house comes home and said, "I've had a terrible day. I'm exhausted. I can't do a thing." Then the at-home parent says, "You think you've had a bad day. Let me tell you about mine." There's nowhere to go from there, right?

Jessica: (16:02)
Yes.

Barbara: (16:02)
I really coach parents on taking that moment to stay calm and say, "I'm really sorry you had a tough day. It sounds awful. Come on in, let's sit down together. I want to hear about it, and then later I'd like to tell you about mine." Putting the person who's coming... Doesn't have to be coming in, but the person who's sharing the difficult day, putting that on the front burner but always coming back to the other piece, too.

Barbara: (16:31)
And the more we do that with one another... It doesn't even have to be in couple's relationships, it can be with our coworkers, our friends, to be able to validate what they're putting out there. We feel so invisible in this world when we don't validate. And with friendships, if you don't mind me going into that-

Jessica: (16:51)
No.

Barbara: (16:51)
... it's a little bit tricky too because we can so easily want to fix our friends' pain. "Oh, you're having a hard time. How about if I come over right now and we go for a walk?" Instead of, "I really hear you. That had to be tough what happened today. Tell me more." That's what that person needs.

Jessica: (17:10)
Yes. That's so powerful, Barbara. That shift that it takes to go from, "This person does not care about what I've been through that day. This person does not appreciate what I do," to realize that that is aligned with past trauma, perhaps. And to be able to shift from that to, "You know what? I'm going to validate this person." It sometimes feels like, well, that person doesn't deserve to be validated. But to shift from that space, I've noticed that it becomes more of a value of who I'm going to be in the world, to say, "You know what? I'm going to validate, not because of this person deserving or not deserving, but because I value peace and I value connection more than protection." And to say, "What's going to happen if I validate?" Say, "Wow, that must have been a really tough day." All of a sudden, that person is going to be someone different. It's like taking such a huge chance. And I've learned this from your wisdom, to give someone a chance to show up differently is a huge new thing, but, wow, does it make a difference, right?

Barbara: (18:38)
What comes up for me was, you're talking, Jess, is the word safety. Even though we feel like does that person deserve my empathy right now? I'm angry with them, a lot of it's about people not feeling safe in the world, not safe in their relationships, not safe when their inner child is out, they're triggered. To be able to create a safe space for that other person who's triggered is going to help both parties stay out of fight or flight, right?

Jessica: (19:10)
Yes.

Barbara: (19:11)
That's the purpose of it. It's a very loving, mindful way to relate as opposed to... It really is so much like how we can talk to our kids when we're upset. We can talk to our partners that way, too. "If you come in the door acting like that one more time, you're out of here." Again, downhill slide, right?

Jessica: (19:31)
Mm-hmm.

Barbara: (19:31)
Yeah.

Jessica: (19:34)
I do have a question, though, if you don't mind.

Barbara: (19:36)
Sure.

Jessica: (19:37)
What is some wisdom around a toxic partnership where the one partner is willing to do the work, the other partner isn't in a position yet to be able to look at their blind spots and do the work? What can that person do to still self-soothe without being triggered and without resorting to being reactive, escalating the household, and creating more toxicity?

Barbara: (20:09)
My reaction to that question, Jess, would be to try as hard as one can to use the plan B model. And all of the angst the parent under stress is feeling, to have that be validated by other people, therapists, friends, whatever, but in dealing with the toxic parts of the relationship is to be able to, little bit by little bit, say to the other person, "I noticed that when I suggest we put our heads together to fix the house up, you get very defensive with me. Could we talk about it?" But picking just a little bit at a time, not an overall thing like, "You're such a defensive person. You're always getting angry at me." That's going to make the other person feel triggered into fight or flight. Huge amounts of self-care for oneself for people that are in that situation, but setting a model and a little structure for ways to work out problems as they come up.

Jessica: (21:15)
Thank you.

Barbara: (21:15)
And it's also to say it's very difficult. I'm not saying that's a recipe for instant success, but it is an assurance that things won't escalate more and that there's a possible path to working better together.

Jessica: (21:29)
Yes. And two things came up when I was listening to you speak just now, and one is when so many of us, like we've mentioned, come from dysfunctional households. And when we haven't been validated in the past, we have grown up, many of us, without the skills to self-validate. And we're still looking for our partners, and sometimes even our children trigger us because we don't feel like our messages or our teachings are being validated by our own kids or our own partners. I love thinking about the plan B empathy lens for ourselves. How can we validate ourselves for the first time in getting all that artillery out the way? "Well, this person is going to be the one to validate me, or else. This person's finally going to listen to my good ideas, this kid, or else." To shift into that self-validating. And I'm wondering if there's any wordings, because you always have such beautiful wordings. What can someone say to themselves to get themselves out of a needing validation outside of themselves, to self-talk, to get back to that? Well, how can I validate myself?

Barbara: (22:53)
This question hits home, and I'm glad to talk about it. I found developing a relationship with the little Barbaras in me to be a very, very tough piece of work for me, and it's been a part of my life for all of my adulthood. But being able to recognize the little mes in there that were hurt, that weren't validated, that made me feel invisible, to be able to talk to those parts of myself with compassion is worth gold. If I'm waking up in the middle of the night and I'm anxious about something, I can't sleep, I try to remember to talk to all those parts of myself, all the young, young Barbaras. And it always helps.

Jessica: (23:45)
I love that so much. That's just beautiful. And what a way to just validate oneself and to give oneself that feeling that we matter. So often when I'm up in the middle of the night at 3:00 in the morning, I'm just trying to escape that feeling of dread and doom and everything is not right here and there, but to shift towards going toward those little Jessicas.

Barbara: (24:16)
Right.

Jessica: (24:17)
And to feel where that feeling is in my body and to bring it back to its source, wow, little Jessica got really hurt in fourth grade when she was told that she was never going to amount to anything and that she turns people off. Wow, that person wasn't thinking clearly when they said that to that little Jessica. I'm sorry, little Jessica, that you had to feel that.

Barbara: (24:50)
And it's hard work to re-parent ourselves, especially if we're busy with all kinds of other relationship obligations. And I'm so glad you said, Jess, a piece about where do I feel it in my body? because that's huge. And be able to put your hand wherever that is, if it's your heart or your head and be compassionate with yourself.

Jessica: (25:12)
Yes. And I find that it's really interesting. It's almost like we have these bookmarks in our bodies of upsets that have been unresolved. And I notice at 3:00 in the morning, that's my big time to brood, that I can... When I focus on a part of my body that's hurting, I find it fascinating that specific memories come to the surface.

Barbara: (25:37)
Isn't that amazing?

Jessica: (25:38)
Yeah.

Barbara: (25:39)
So amazing. I'm so glad there's so much work being done in somatic therapy now. It's so important. Are you familiar with the Polyvagal Theory?

Jessica: (25:50)
I am.

Barbara: (25:53)
Fabulous work. Stephen Porges. Yeah.

Jessica: (25:57)
Yes, I learned about that when I first learned about the Ross Greene stuff and the stuff you've taught me. And it's just something that I think should be taught in schools to kids.

Barbara: (26:11)
Absolutely. Yeah.

Jessica: (26:12)
Yeah. Do you want to talk just in case our listeners don't know just a tiny bit about the Polyvagal Theory? Or just a little bit about stress, about where safety and stress... It's a little like what we are already talking about, but any additional piece on safety.

Barbara: (26:32)
My takeaways from it is learning how to be in a mindset, body mindset during the day that is good enough. And it's nice if there's times that are really good, and it's okay if there are times that are, they're okay but not great. But being able to move in and out of those states throughout a day without dropping into freeze or going numb, leaving our bodies, dissociating, and without getting into the whole fight or flight triggered space where it's very difficult to relate to one another.

Barbara: (27:13)
And one of the ways that the Polyvagal people talk about doing that is to really identify what are the feelings you have when you're in those positive states? Where do you feel it in your body? Where are you in the environment? And learning how to create pictures in your mind of that, or actually going to those places, so building up coping mechanisms to stay in that zone of regulation that works well. That's a very simplistic summary, but it's what I take away from it. Yeah. I'm sure-

Jessica: (27:51)
Right. That's so powerful though, because what I take away from what you've summarized right there is how the expectation of a day is sometimes so unrealistic for me personally. I'll think, well, today's going to be the day where there's no conflict and no drama and I'm just going to make sure that things go okay. But in reality, there are just seasons throughout the day that seem to, depending on what kind of culture you have in your house, and in my house, the seasons can change every hour. And to be able to find a place to self-regulate with being prepared emotionally that things can change throughout the course of the day and to not have expectations for how things might turn out seems to be a really empowered way to be in a household where you just don't know what's going to happen next.

Barbara: (29:05)
Oh Jess, that's so well said. I'm glad you used the word self-regulation because I think that's key for us as parents, if we're mostly talking about parenting here, and helping our kids through our model how to self-regulate. Our model is so powerful to our children, and being able for kids to be raised, not just with plan B, but to hear the adults around them communicating in a mindful plan B way, it's a real recipe for success. It really is.

Jessica: (29:42)
Yes. And I'm laughing because what you said is so true because I've had a moment where my son will raise his voice and say something just almost telling me, "Well, I should just have to deal with this." And then I said, "Well, where in the world did you ever hear that?" And he said, "From you." And I had that moment where I then suddenly remembered one time where I was feeling so impatient, and I felt so justified in saying it at that moment because I had been feeling really disrespected and I was not having my best day at all; I was tired and reactive. But I did say that, but somehow I had a blind spot. When he said it to me, I thought, oh my gosh, I'm not going to be talked to like that.

Jessica: (30:39)
But that was a little bit of a shift for me where I realized that kids really do model after what they're seeing. And that's when I realized if I just role model my values and how I think I'm happy as being, or the most constructive or empathetic way, then he really does learn that from me rather than my explaining how it should be.

Barbara: (31:12)
What a safe environment you've created for your son. He never would've said that to you, if that weren't the case.

Jessica: (31:21)
Thank you.

Barbara: (31:22)
Beautiful that he did that.

Jessica: (31:24)
Thank you. Well, he sure gave me an opportunity to see something I hadn't seen. Oh my goodness. Well, we have a couple more minutes. do-

Barbara: (31:41)
Okay. I'd like the opportunity-

Jessica: (31:43)
And then we'll just finish up. This has been such a wonderful opportunity to speak with you. And I'm wondering, if parents are listening and they want to learn more about this stuff, where might they go first to just get a little bit of a deeper set of tools for the CPS model? And where could-

Barbara: (32:09)
I would recommend going to the website called livesinthebalance.org. And there's a great deal of information there about the CPS model. Originally, I mentioned there's a book that has been edited, republished many times, The Explosive Child, but I also really like one of Dr. Greene's recent books called Raising Human Beings. And basically, what that book is about is using the CPS model with all children, not just with children that have behavioral concerns. livesinthebalance.org or Raising Human Beings.

Jessica: (32:54)
Very good. And just one last thing before we go. I just wanted to reiterate one thing you said in case parents are listening and they feel overwhelmed or they want to start practicing with a plan B empathy lens. Something you said that was so profound, just to stick with one tiny problem to solve. We tend to want to just bring up a billion things. Well, this isn't working, this isn't working, this isn't working. If you wouldn't mind speaking our last thing, just one minute about how important it is to stick with one small problem.

Barbara: (33:32)
Yeah. First, I'd like to say that regardless of what curriculum teachers use or what models parents use or what books they go by, the most important thing I feel is how we talk to our kids. I think that's way more than important than picking just the right approach. And that's why I like this particular model, though, because it is geared toward increasing parent-child inter-relationship. It's absolutely a very, very powerful method. And now, Jess, I'm forgetting part two to your question.

Jessica: (34:14)
That's okay.

Barbara: (34:16)
[inaudible 00:34:16].

Jessica: (34:16)
Something I've learned from you is when you're talking to your partner or your child when you're really upset, you pick one tiny thing to talk about.

Barbara: (34:26)
Correct.

Jessica: (34:28)
You don't say, "Well, you did this, and then I have evidence that you did this, and then this didn't work," to stick to one tiny thing to begin the journey of having empathy instead of authority.

Barbara: (34:40)
Absolutely. And I can't emphasize that enough, and I'm glad you brought it up. A good example would be if a parent and child are working on... Let's say the parent is concerned that the child is sneaking food out of the refrigerator at night, and we're working on the concerns and new ways to solve the problem. We solve it beautifully, or we come up with a great solution to try. And then at that moment, a parent might say, "Okay, now I want to bring up another problem. I got to tell you something; my son's not doing well. We need to work on it." It almost takes the energy out of that beautiful piece, too. And the more we use the model to solve problems, the more it becomes part of our own language every day. It doesn't feel so canned. But go slow and get some help with other people to do it, and I think you'll find it's a wonderful approach.

Jessica: (35:42)
Yes. Thank you so much, Barbara, for talking with me today. As usual, you've given me so many things to think about, and I think our listeners, too, so thank you.

Barbara: (35:54)
Thank you, Jess. And I think your podcast is so wonderful, and I look forward to continuing to follow it.

Jessica: (36:01)
Oh, thank you so much, Barbara.

Barbara: (36:03)
You're welcome.

Jessica: (36:03)
And I hope you have a beautiful rest of the day.

Barbara: (36:07)
You too, Jess.

Jessica: (36:07)
Thank you.

Barbara: (36:07)
Bye bye.

Jessica: (36:16)
Bye. You've been listening to Once Upon an Upset: Interviews. For Once Upon an Upset podcast for kids and parents, please visit onceuponanupset.com where you'll find stories and conversations to help make sense of difficult times. This episode was written and produced by me, Jessica Laurel Kane, and the music was made by Jerome Rossen at Freshmade Music. See you next time.